Reservation - Jaati ,Inter-Jaati Marriage ,Varna ,Manusmriti and DharmaShastras - Discussions Hindu-Phobia and Hindu-Hatred

2 points | Post submitted by suyash95 160 days ago | 8 comments | viewed 114 times

How To explain to other People

  • suyash95 160 days ago | +0 points

    1000 years of Discrimination ,What are u Smoking ,i would like to ask 


    Before Industrial Revolution in 18 Century , There was no systematic science and maths like we have today. Given that people were busy in their family occupations through father-son apprenticeship, they would have learnt the necessary trade knowledge in the family. A farmer would teach his son practically. Physicians would have had their own private treatises to refer to. Mass printing was started in Europe to print Bibles for various churches across Europe. There was no compelling need here to read religion from a book. Religion was spread through means of stories, songs and poems to general populace. So, without mass printing, how would you expect to impart education to as many people as possible? And why would people learn what they don't need. The nature of economy did not support education for all, unlike today when information has exploded. The priest never learnt how to trade, and the trader never learnt how to perform rituals.

    I would further like to ask- In which country , was there a Universal Education system,-AFRICA Europe ,Middle East ,North America ,South America ,Australia ,China ,Russia . where please check and tell me ?Most of Religious books got translated in only late 19 century?Before that they were only in hands of few.

    Now Imagine Life Before INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTIONL

    Life was hard.People spent their daily activities in collecting water,arranging n preparing for food and other basic necessities.There were no rapid communication methods ,communities were close-knit and exclusionary. one cannot imagine a life without smartphones today.. and People commented about times back then... when water lose by itself was a luxury... using pompous phrases like " basic human rights"...People were self-bound to custom and tradition and trapped within the web of family and community. If one was strong-willed one can do exactly as one pleased. Living one’s life according to the expectations and in order to please others (family and community) is a major source of suffering even today.

    Most folks today see the ancient world retroactively through the lens of their current situation instead of doing a mental time-travel thing and putting themselves back in time.

    Life spans were short in them days (40 - 50 years was very old) — and the imperative for most people was to learn a trade and get to work, get married at puberty - have as many kids as possible because 1/3rd of them would die before their first birthday.

    In the old days people had to walk for kilometers to rivers to wash clothes and fetch water - sometimes twice a day. Then there was milking, churning, cooking, cleaning, child-rearing - 24/7 …The only way to get an education was to learn the trade of your father and your community.

    To study one Veda it took a full-time study of 12 years ending at age 21. Most commoners were parents of numerous children by then.BUT there was a major revolution in 1439 when a German guy invented a printing press - not long after, printed books began appearing in India and in a flash we arrive at the 21st century when all the Vedas and allied literature is now IN PRINT!

    This is also indicated by Maslow's hierarchy. You need to satisfy the bottom tiers before you move up (esteem) and before Industrial Revolution in 18 century,most people were busy satisfying their Basic needs. Context and perspective is important. All of human civilisation for the past 100,000 years has been by default imperfect struggling for perfection. 

    We need to time-travel to make judgements, sitting in our comfortable middle class lounges, sipping chardonnay in AC with surround sound is not a base for harsh judgements of past systems.

    Universal Education to people is a modern day concept . 

    In which country,society ,was there a Universal Education system before 19 century before invention of printing press,AFRICA Europe ,Middle East ,North America ,South America ,Australia ,China ,Russia-Please check n tell me.Were Physics ,Chemistry ,Maths existed before 1500 AD ?

    People were denied Access to VEdas learning .Response is No one was intersted in LEarning Vedas.the knowledge contained in Vedas was passed in form of Puranas. EVen today when Vedas are available in print, no one is interested in learning them

    .In British India, Hindus who were labelled as upper castes by british were made to held most of the jobs in the lower branches of civil administration, and in education, they were, made to be comparatively, streets ahead for 100 years straight.

    point to be noted-british barred any lower caste hindu to either study or apply for any govt job.this was than used by British for dividing Hindus.

    Let us come to Origin of Word DALITS - You can check there was no such word before 1857 First War of Independence - It is a British Construct . 

    Let us take some Dalit Jaatis

    It is interesting that Mahar and Charamkar Jaatis had full proper regiments in British Indian Army .So the Million dollar question is when were they oppressed. They had lands,money everything granted by British .

    Ambedkar belonging to a Scheduled Caste Status is a recent Creation - by Missionaries and Communists. Ambedkar's native Jaati MAHAR sent letters to British claiming their Kshatriya status

    Jaatavs, Pasis and Meena Jaatis sent Letters to British affirming their Kshatriya Status

    There was no existence of Mehtar and Bhangi Jaatis before 10 century Ad. 

    They are creation of ISlamic Rule ,The Valmikis were pushde into Cleaning Occupations forcefully by British .

    Read British Era based Census reports 1871 -1921 to get a clear Picture


  • suyash95 160 days ago | +0 points

    What is JAATIS and JAATIVAAD -

    Jati: our tribal/regional “origin”, a community, people who have shared culture, customs, traditions, festivals, food habits and so on; people with whom we are most comfortable with. Some may suggest that our “tribal origins” are irrelevant in the modern context. But think again.

    Is it all that difficult to determine why our jati is so important? This ancient association is civilizational, and one that is gradually fading in modern, cosmopolitan cities with nuclear families. So there is increase in marriages across communities. And as cuisine becomes more cosmopolitan, detached from its origins whether “south indian”, “punjabi”, “bengali”, “rajasthani”, “chinese”, “greek”, “continental” or “mughalai”, even our food preferences are gradually becoming similar across communities. Even then, given a choice, many fall back to their community food preferences even in cities for regular home cooked meals. Our diversity is a cause of celebrations and it has a civilizational context, one that people of foreign faiths like Christianity, Islam and Marxists can never understand.

    Most Indians unknowingly use the term “caste” for “community”. It is better to use community when you mean Jati, as Jati is really people of our region who share our language/dialect, culture, customs, traditions, deities, festivals, food and so on. In inter-community marriages,this is definitely a challenge unless you are a second or third generation urban citizen.Caste” is not a term associated with any Indian tradition. You may have to ask the Portuguese to define the term, and then the British to understand how they used the concept to “divide and rule”! Many in India think of “caste” as being the same as “community”. And there is no “community” of priests. Priests are there in every Indian community.

    VARNA -What is VARNA

    Varna is our spiritual orientation, our inner compass, one that manifests as our attitude,

    interests, values, develops as character, and is ultimately reflected in our actions, behaviour and pursuits in life.Here “varna”, or spiritual orientation, means your inner compass that gives you direction in life. Varna together with Triguna (source of motivation or drive) gives you both direction and drive and these manifest as aptitude, interests, personality and behaviour or action . Eg -Kshatriya varna is a spiritual orientation that manifests as as a composite character, whose traits include nobility, courage, a concern for others, protectiveness, and so on.VARNA is independent of sex, birth or breeding. It is determined by temperament and vocation and is not fixed determined by birth and heredity. Any Varna can be attained through proper Training and by cultivating discipline. Since Varna depends on Tri-guna(Sattva,Rajas,Tamas) , A person desirous of Sattva guna will have to cultivate those practises which generate it and eat food which is predominantly Sattvic.

    What about Manusmriti ,DHARMASHASTRAS 

    They are narratives, opinions, personal notes - in today’s world, “blogs”! Unlike communal religions which have state built into the religion, Hindu traditions and the state were always different entities. And it is the state that makes the laws, not Hindu traditions. Even the Veda/Purana and darshana are “secondary knowledge”, meaning they are someone else’s experiences. We can use them to find our own path to the truth, or we can create our own path. All humans are born with all the tools they need to seek the truth. And while the texts are useful, they are optional.Smriti writers were similar to Jurisprudence scholars of 17th Century suggesting various ways of making law and implementing them. Acceptance of those theories was in the hands of kings .

    Most such suggestions remained in theory only.

    What about NEECHI JAATIS -

    The real problem was lack of dignity of some occupations due to notions of purity, and excess prestige of others, and this became rigid into a belief that abilities were hereditary. This happened during Mughal and British Rule . Breaking these misconceptions, and providing equal dignity, is they key to dismantling discrimination based on caste. In today's world, the desire to make India progress has definitely made many to practice equality, and this will remain the motivator, and much needs to be done.Hinduism always allowed caste mobility. By moving to new locations, giving up practices seen as reprehensible by other castes such as scavenging, alcoholism, meat-eating, unclean life-style and changing professions - like taking to farming instead of butchery or leather work - caste have raised their social standing in Hindu Social Fold. Ancient Hindus never had surnames n no Hindu text mentions any surname for Brahmin or KShatriya ,Vaishya or Shudra.People were free to choose their occupations n do what they want they could have easily changed their locations

    moving to new places.why this is imp is becoz - Many jaatis changed their social status by changing their jobs and practices and resorting to agriculture and vegetarianism by moving to new places.the population was also less around 30-40 crore compared to today's 175 crore in Akhand Bharat. Even changing names ,occupations were very easy, Islamic and British Invasions made it tough and virtually static


  • suyash95 157 days ago | +0 points

    Let alone women education, even most people in the west were illiterate in 1400-1500 AD and those who were considered educated had only one source of education namely Bible.


  • suyash95 157 days ago | +0 points

    Career options were limited in agrarian societies so how do you expect Dharma Shastra from 500 BCE to discuss career guidance and provide options?


  • suyash95 157 days ago | +0 points

    Let us take a look at Caste in Most famous Buddhist country Tibet

    There were three main social groups in Buddhist Tibet prior to 1959, namely ordinary laypeople (mi ser in Tibetan), lay nobility (sger pa), and monks. The ordinary layperson could be further classified as a peasant farmer (shing-pa) or nomadic pastoralist (trokpa). Ladakh, with significant historical presence of Buddhists, a caste system existed in a manner similar to caste structure in Tibet. The upper castes belonged to sger gzhis, and were called sgar pa. The priestly caste belonged to monastery, and was called chos-gzhis. Miser was the serf caste.Serfs, the majority of the people, farmed and paid taxes. 

    An individual’s social status and lifelong occupation was destined by birth, closed, and depending on the family one was born into, the individual inherited a tenure document known as khral-rten. Buddhist castes had sub-castes, such as nang gzan, khral pa and dud chung. Buddhist also had castes that were shunned by their community and ostracized, such as hereditary fishermen, butchers and undertakers. The untouchables in Buddhist regions, as in Tibet, were known as Ragyappa, who lived in isolated ghettos, and their occupation was to remove corpses (human or animal) and dispose of sewage.


  • suyash95 157 days ago | +0 points

    Modern Hindus, buying into the Marxist social justice agenda are deeply embarrassed and have no idea how to respond.When investigating ancient social structures the most important factor is perspective and context. Modern social class categories do not really apply to ancient cultures..The HINDU varṇa system refers to the classical structure of society first described in the Rig Veda where society described as a single socio-economic being (puruṣa) was divided into four sections: brahmins - teachers, priests, scholars, advisors were the head of the social entity, the kshatriyas - warriors and administrators were the arms of the social entity, the vaishyas - farmers, were the loins and the sudras - legs, were the support, the stabilizers and the locomotion of society. This was a purely idealistic description of society and not a socio-political functional model. Power in ever society in invested in the economy and in those who control the means of production.

    The four Varnas are a general professional classification of human society - the same four categories can be found in every complex society.These were only a THEORETICAL

    All politicians, governing agencies, law-enforcement, border protection, armed forces etc. are “Kshatriyas”.

    All those who work in the teaching, consulting and legal profession are categorised as “Brahmins”

    Those who work in finance, investment, banking, entrepreneurs and investors, owners of the means of production etc. are “Vaishyas”

    And all those who work in service professions and vocations are “shudras”.

    Theoretical — which is what we get from the much maligned Manu et. al - is the division of society into the four well-known divisions known technically as varna. This is an ideological division which was never seriously or consistently applied since it was an entirely agrarian based system. This is what the British administrators latched onto for purposes of social engineering. The actual borders between these groups is very hazy.

    The unionization of labour known as jāti — these are hundreds and thousands of kinship groups that have transactional rights with other groups — cooperating and coordinating through structured channels.

    This is just a THEORETICAL concept

    The problems associated with this arrangement are universal — arrogance, hubris, discrimination, inequality, oppression, exploitation, coercion etc. - all of which are common to every society and indeed every human being. They are not unique to the caste-system. If they were then there would be no social-justice warriors anywhere except in India. Just wind back and read about the treatment of the working class and the poor in Victorian England and the theories of Marx - all based on European social conditions!


  • suyash95 157 days ago | +0 points


    The Hindu Varna-Jaati system was a socio-political arrangement for a stable and sustainable economy. Each JAATI had a share of the market which was specifically theirs and each JAATI was an independent professional and legal body. They made their own rules and laws and administered their own justice and provided social security to all its members. All professional education was undertaken by the caste for all its members in a time when there was no universal education.
    They decided what they would eat, how they would dress, who would marry and how ceremonies and other functions would be carried out. Some JAATIS ate beef some didn’t, some remarried their widows some didn’t, some engaged in child-marriage and some didn’t etc. etc.

    When the Jews arrived in India they were assigned the JAATIS of Saniwar Telis (Saturday oil-pressers because of their refusal to work on Saturdays) They remained as a distinct JAATIS until the 19 century when they adopted full status as Beni Israel Jews.
    The Parsis who sought refuge in India became vaishyas and survived with all their customs and language in tact to this day.
    The Christians of Kerala were also able to maintain their traditions and customs for nearly 2000 years BECAUSE of this system.

    The incredible multi-culturalism of India where myriads of groups have maintained a distinct identity for thousands of years is only because of the Varna-Jaati system and its group autonomy.

    The Indian Jaati system allowed diversity to flourish unlike what you’d observe in other regions of the world. For example, in France or Italy, there were violent language-based wars to impose homogeneity on everyone. In other words, a single Jaati survives in France or Italy today which is made up of a single ethnicity following similar religious practices and speaking one language.


    The caste system was a very effective tool of social engineering, of structuring society, regulating labour and facilitating the exchange of goods and services.

    The caste system was common to all the ancient societies - Roman, Greek, Egyptian, European, Mayan, Incan, Chinese etc.

    But There was an exception .In all Other countries,There was no Social Mobility.In India,the mobility was available
    caste is derived from the Portuguese casta = class. In Hinduism caste is known as varṇa and jāti. Varṇa means "character" or "Nature" and refers to one's natural disposition. Jāti refers to the community in which one is born.
    The problems associated with the caste/class system are the universal ones — prejudice, discrimination, oppression, exploitation, corruption, coercion, etc. These faults are found in all Human Societies wherever they are. Even the Soviets and Chinese couldn’t eradicate the class system in their Communist Utopias.

    • Caste (from the Portuguese - casta) is a socio-economic arrangement of a sophisticated and complex and economically stable society. All societies have had and do have hierarchical structures based on birth and occupation. Farmers, workers guilds - now known as unions, merchant guilds known as associations, law-enforcement and soldiers, nobility and clergy are all class compositions of almost every society.

      If one takes the IT industry as an example, there are the innovators and developers = brahmins; there is the security division dealing with cyber crime and hacking = kshatriyas; there is the marketing and merchandising division = vaishyas; and there are the technicians & workers who build the hardware and the supply chain the gets the product to market = sudras.

      The problems associated with every hierarchical structure are the same - all based on greed and self-interest — exploitation, oppression, prejudice, discrimination, dissimulation, cruelty etc. etc.

      In historical terms in India there were several benefits which the caste-system known as varna brought with it. In one respect it was the original multiculturalism in action. Intermarriage was discouraged so every group retained its culture, tradition, customs, dress, habits etc. e.g. the Jews, Parsis, Syrian Christians - all kept their traditions alive for a thousand years due to the caste-system. So the 1000’s of different groups maintained their autonomy in respect of their traditions and customs and also in respect of their law - each caste was ruled by a panchayat (5 member elected committee) which adjudicated in all disputes and criminal offences with respect to their own caste.

      All members of the caste were educated in their tradition craft and all were employed and social security maintained through mutual channels of assistance.

      Obviously all this changed with the market forces. Nowadays few people work in their hereditary professions. The problems with the caste system are the same as mentioned above.

      • suyash95 256 days ago | +0 points

        Egypt had 8 levels with more fine grained. 


        Japan also had 8 


        Mesopotamia had 6. 




        Modern western class system. 


    • suyash95 157 days ago | +0 points

      So wee see as from above  ,Every country had a Hierarchical system not just India and India was not an exception 


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